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STOP THIS NEVERENDING EXIT SCAM SCHEME! ENFORCE MULTI-SIG FOR ALL MARKETS AND NO EXIT-SCAMS WILL EVER OCCUR AGAIN! : DarkNetMarkets | Torhoo darknet markets

ONCE AGAIN WE GOT RIPPED. PLEASE ENFORCE MULTISIG ONLY MARKETS AND HELP US STOP THIS BS.

Only markets with Multi-Sig XMR and BTC should be allowed to promote on dread and if they dont they should not be in the https://torhoo.cc/go.php?u=TDJRdmMzVndaWEpzYVhOMA==#
Why would you not enforce this?

https://torhoo.cc/go.php?u=TDNVdlNIVm5RbFZ1ZEdWeQ==#
https://torhoo.cc/go.php?u=TDNVdmMyRnRkMmhwYzJ0bGVRPT0=#

EDIT: I understood XMR Multisig is difficult to enforce as usability is not given for the end user. So instead of enforcing MS only markets, we could enforce the requirement that every market has to add MS XMR and MS BTC additionally to the regular payment methods. This allows customers and vendors to decide what they want to use. Vendors can incentive customers to use MS by offering better prices.
This is a way to start making a change. XMR Developers will see demand and eventually will further develop their system. IF WE DON'T DO ANYTHING THERE WILL BE GUARANTEED NO PROGESS.


VOTE THIS POST UP IF YOU AGREE!!!
/u/Yugong P
9 points
1 week ago*

1
1
Awards Received
Bronze
1
Bag of Sand
1
Gets discussed now and then but the real reason is complexity when it comes to XMR multi sig. That functionality isn't as well maintained and regularly by Monero devs either.

My take on it is the real core issues are 2.


1) Markets don't have competent enough admins whom understand the entire landscape. Most of them have never touched enterprise environments or worked on complex networks. Some don't learn from past mistakes either and put security as after thought.

That would translate to poor security, scalability and reliable uptime not mentioning making it much easier for LE to grab the admin and servers. A painful reality but fixable point.


2) The second and harder to solve issue is trust.

  • Trust between market admins and their staff. Why didn't anyone from the Abacus staff speak out?
  • Trust between market admins and vendors. Not enough vendors came forward of what they have lost in the first hours of the problem. The functionality of Dread is exactly to prevent and hold accountable all parties involved, why not use it?
  • Trust between market admins and users. No transparency, barely a post by the main admin. The post outlined DDoS as reason but didn't address why deposits stopped working.
  • Trust between market admins and forum admins or moderators like /u/HugBunter and /u/Paris. HugBunter calling them out on a post has been the right move after the Abacus admin didn't deliver on his promise.


Some potential solutions or additions in my humble view

  • Trust between market admins and their staff. Increase accountability of individual staff members. The I didn't know shouldn't be able to fly anymore as excuse, if you are part of the market you should know. The same people shouldn't be using those credentials to get jobs at other markets either. I'm referencing the SamCulper informant incident as another reason why it shouldn't be allowed. Burning staff member handles and declaring them person non-grata should be standard.
  • Trust between market admins and vendors. Increase transparency requirements and accountability of the market admin towards vendors. No silence and leaving your community in the dark. Goes the other way too vendors should take some level of responsibility when making a push for a market. Vendors should report losses within a short time frame to let everyone know too.
  • Trust between market admins and users. Same situation more transparency requirements and accountability. A superlist market should honor these commitments as they are to the entire community whom are giving their trust. No answer within a given period should be enough for a warning regardless how it would affect the markets reputation. It would reduce the time and amount taken during unfortunate events. Sites advertising on Dread especially link sites should follow giving out warnings quickly too and be under scrutiny if they don't in due time. Because of their benefit of being advertised on Dread it makes sense to take on responsibility. Instead of only taking in, time to give back. Site index sites bring in a lot of traffic too and can prevent more victims being drained out of their money.
  • Trust between market admins and forum admins or moderators like /u/HugBunter and /u/Paris. One bit here I personally add is the community should get a bit more information on the situation. What was the initial reasoning the Abacus admin gave to /u/HugBunter for why deposits stopped working? It had nothing to do with DDoS surely? My opinion is while some information would be naturally kept off for reasons of protecting parties involved or Dread like HugBunter has done in the past with good reasons, some it should be transparently disclosed.


The whole point is if trust is increased, accountability should be too. If you don't give updates to the community without any real reasoning for the delay, forum admins like HugBunter shouldn't pull back or be responsible for markets reputation when they make posts warning everyone of the potential danger.

One potential alternative to the multi sig problem could be to tip the favor of protection to the buyers side. What I mean by this is vendors can make security deposits with the market and then buyers would directly send to the vendor XMR addresses provided. True real direct payment not through escrow. It would limit the amount of orders vendors can take at any given moment but buyer funds would be safe. Asian markets work on this principle. After all if the buyers stop coming, the vendors will stop selling and the whole thing collapses.

Every situation brings lessons and if we don't evolve and improve thinking what we can do better, we're all bound to repeat the same cycle with the same result each time.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
5 points
1 week ago
Thanks for this. Unfortunately this does not give reason why multisig should not get enforced. It works and we would not have to rely on "trust". If you think it's hard to implement XMR Multisig and use this as an excuse, how do you want implement trust controlling? Impossible and you will find out trust is gone when it's too late. It is impossible to prevent exit-scams with trust.Unfortunately the whole TRUST point is.

As a vendor I'm patient. Abacus paid out on Thursday, Friday they didn't, I realized on Monday. Monday I still shipped because I had hope that was just an error and I didn't want to let my customers wait. So basically the only damage I could have avoided was monday, on tuesday they were gone and it was all over dread already so there was no point to come out earlier.

This is about making it imposible for amarkets to exit-scam. Your input doesn't give solution to that nor does it really give reason why multisig should not be enforced. If an admin not competent to implement then hes just not the right admin for this kinda project.
/u/Yugong P
3 points
1 week ago
You're missing my point. Re-read my initial comment.


Thanks for this. Unfortunately this does not give reason why multisig should not get enforced.

If you read the very first 2 sentences it gives the answer straight.


Gets discussed now and then but the real reason is complexity when it comes to XMR multi sig. That functionality isn't as well maintained and regularly by Monero devs either.

It's not about XMR multi sig being hard to implement. It's about making it easy to use for end users that's what I meant by the complexities of XMR multi sig. Dark Matter I believe it was said only a single person had used it once for I don't know how many months period. Their implementation isn't noob friendly either. You need to create wallets every single time and per your own words LekkerCocaine, some buyers still use BTC and you want to force XMR multi sig? Unless XMR multi sig gets some sort of revamp it's never going to happen.

Adding to my point markets like DrugHub are doing good by enforcing PGP but they're restricting theirs and the scenes growth that way. You can't expect a beginner to be opsec pro. If the learning curve is too great, nobody will bother, easier to walk down the street and get it from a dealer. Path of least resistance discussed about the auto encrypt issues too take a look /post/4c5587d7bc12790cf306/#c-a9d3f2fa8517025004

The second sentence I explained the functionality isn't well maintained and thoroughly tested by the Monero devs either. Would you like to bet your business on technology whom might or might not have some critical bug somewhere whom locks everyones money? You're a business man and understand the need for reliability and XMR multi sig is not it.

Though I thought me briefly mentioning both of these points was obvious, now with the explanation you should understand what I completely mean.


how do you want implement trust controlling? Impossible and you will find out trust is gone when it's too late.

You can't implement trust controlling. Nowhere did I say you need to implement it in such form. What I said was we need to increase transparency and accountability during the lifetime of a market and after each incident. It won't stop the worst from happening but it will mitigate it. Same approach is taken everywhere. With the Tor DDoS pure example, Endgame was created to mitigate the issue not fix it as it's on a deeper level. Why not embrace some improvement rather than none?


This is about making it imposible for amarkets to exit-scam.

You can never truly control that. A vendor like you can collude with a staff member to judge escrow in your favor, done over enough orders, and enough vendors collude, it's the same thing. You're trying to fix human nature while what I very clearly proposed was put mitigations in place along the way to reduce the final impact.


Your input doesn't give solution to that nor does it really give reason why multisig should not be enforced

Why multisig should not be enforced was very clearly explained in my comment, I've elaborated for you on this comment too.

I gave one sample solution off the top of my head about markets taking security deposit same way as Asian markets do. It tips the scale to buyers side but I'll repeat myself if the buyers stop coming because of the common market incidents, everything dies either way.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Thanks, I understood what you mean but I was saying that just because it's difficult and not properly developed it doesn't mean that we shouldn't enforce it somehow. At the very least we could add it as a requirement for every market to develop and offer it as an additional payment method like darkmatter is doing it. We don't have to go all in from the very beginning but not doing anything will keep us stuck at where we at right now.

Regarding your other input, I'm not saying that we should not implement this. Everything that can help is welcome but that's another topic.
/u/Yugong P
1 points
1 week ago
If understood you know it's not properly tested out on the Monero side. How are we going to push on markets a half baked or not maintained regularly and half tested code? We're not talking about implementation on markets at all or usage on the user side. Push needs to be done at the top with Monero devs first, same situation as with Tor where they need to fix the faulty design or implementation. If you have a faulty car engine you wouldn't put it in production with all cars and then do patches on top, the core issues need to be addressed first. We can't or rather shouldn't have a requirement to build or implement something not well tested enough whom can turn out to be faulty.

Others like HugBunter and DrugHub have answered the same things I outlined. Vendors can collude with markets, markets can manipulate the multi sig initialization process and much more. If barely anyone has used multi sig like on markets like Dark Matter that tells a story.

Everyone agrees we need multi sig myself including. My comment was to bring reality to the ideal dream scenario. We can all want multi sig, decentralized, living on satellites and hosted on the moon but we have to make due with what we have today. The current state of code doesn't support that reality on a business level where reliability is first priority. If we push at direction of the core problem with possibility of revamping or simplifying Monero multi sig process we can then actually create something lasting.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
4 days ago
Well then until XMR MS is properly developed enforce MS BTC and leave it to the customers and vendors if they want to use it or not. I know BTC comes with risks but it also comes with advantages... One could also exchange xmr to btc to avoid risks.
/u/headshotnegativity
2 points
1 week ago
actually on dread it was more like: nothing happened ,vito just buying cigarrettes, its all good etc..very dissapointing performance all around, sorry for everybodies losses but as you wrote: multisig could have prevented lots of L's.
/u/cokegoblin
2 points
1 week ago
Too hard to use mate i have tried and gave up
/u/headshotnegativity
2 points
1 week ago
1. Boot Tails (no persistence unless encrypted). Connect to Tor.

2. Download verified Monero CLI via Tor. Extract it.

3. On separate Tails machines (or airgapped laptops):
`monero-wallet-cli --generate-new-wallet NAME`
→ Choose multisig (e.g., 2/3)

4. Share `multisig_info` offline (USB stick or QR).
→ Exchange until setup complete.

5. Make a watch-only wallet online for receiving.

6. To send coins:
a) Build unsigned TX with watch-only wallet.
b) Move TX to cosigner machines → `sign_multisig`.
c) Final cosigner → `submit_transfer` → done.

7. Never put all keys on one machine.
Never connect signing machines to the internet.

8. Always over Tor. Use bridges. Never reuse sticks. Encrypt everything.

7 & 8 not even xtra steps

you do a hundred captchas a day to post dum shit or because AB thinks you on speed while browsing

markets should implement that, no escrow needed, no possibility of exit scammin on vendors and buyers..

beautyfulcrimes2.0
/u/wallnut553
3 points
1 week ago
That’s exactly the problem. NOBODY is doing all that. I consider myself at least a little good with tech and I have no idea what half of that meant. Most people do not understand the intricasies of a crypto like XMR.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Buddy, a customer will never have to do all that if the market doesn't exit scam. A regular customer will send his XMR to a wallet just like any other. So whats the issue? Only in case a market exit scam he will have to co-sign and go through all this shit but MS will prevent markets from exit-scamming.
/u/cokegoblin
1 points
1 week ago
Mate i respect you many years you worked and i tried your stuff when i went to europe for vacay but have you tried using darkmatter? lol i have and i hate it. Monero multi-signature is bloody brutally hard to use as buyer if i was doing a 10 million pound deal yea but for small orders? No way in hell. Yugang told you monero developers dont update the code awfully silly for day2day ops
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
All posts about monero are moderated before approval due to phishing links.

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/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
All posts about monero are moderated before approval due to phishing links.

See For information on how to obtain monero see: /post/fa0d55812cfccbfc9825

or /d/Monero/wiki?id=a34355a5 for more information

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/u/smoker247365
1 points
1 week ago
Are you high sir? i didnt read most of his response and understood xmr multisig complex to use and under developed lmaoo market vendors be high on own supply
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Go to /d/monero for information on obtaining xmr.

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/u/headshotnegativity
1 points
1 week ago
1 for sure, 2 can only be achieved by quality people doing quality work, if group A cant do what is required to keep business safe and functional group A is irrelevant for future of business..
What does Hugbunter calling them out has to do with this shit. Vendors and buyers funds are still gone. Why allow them to promote their market on his platform without this crucial feature to prevent exit scams. This shit is making it looks like Hugbunter is down with this shit!!!
/u/ProjectCannabis
2 points
1 week ago
Put down the pipe HugBunter is not down with any of this bullshit.
/u/Yugong P
1 points
1 week ago
It's very obvious wouldn't you think? The sooner he calls them out the less funds are stolen. Transparency and communication can go a long way.

The reasons markets are allowed to promote without XMR multi sig I literally outlined in my comment, I suggest to read it carefully. None of the reasoning of why not is secret and is known for a long time now by pretty much everyone.

People come online on Dread when things go bad and demand solutions and this or that be done but never actually participate in resolving the problems. If you did, you would know the situation and realize it's exactly at the dead lock I described as everybody knows already.
/u/ringct
3 points
1 week ago
I think wallet-less escrow is fine too. Remove every market that supports BTC.
I will still vote in favor, but it's a bit unreal for this to happen.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
0 points
1 week ago
Dude, wallet-less has absolutely NOTHING to do with making sure the money wont get stolen by markets or seized. If the markets decides to quit, it stops paying out the funds or redirects them to their own wallets. Markets are still in full control over the funds. With multisig thats impossible.
/u/ringct
3 points
1 week ago
If a market gets seized the money will be lost no matter what. Are you aware of how multisig works?
If the markets decides to go offline, nobody will get the funds. I can agree this won't lead to many exits, as there won't be reserves to exit for, but this won't solve all issues!
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
I'm aware of how multisig works and I have used it before. Have you heard of timelock or smart contracts? While there is no timelock for XMR, it is very well possible for BTC. We also had a market that has been using this and all payments got released after a certain time after their exit automatically. I dont recall the name of the market. Besides, the buyer could always co-sign if a market gets seized and release the funds (if he does that is questionable but at least we can reach out to them and ask them to do so).

So no, if the markets gets seized the funds are not gone. Happy to hear which issues it won't solve.
/u/stonedbuyer7335 🍼
4 points
1 week ago
Speaks truth! Multi sig is the only way. I was a vendor during Hansa and when it was seized I had about $8,000 in timelock and waited 90 days after site went down and got paid. only way a market can be trustworthy
/u/ringct
1 points
1 week ago
Even if this is great, and yes I did not think about it initially, Bitcoin shouldn't be used anymore.
Until Monero implements timelock for multisignature, not much can be done to solve this issue fully then.
A good step forward would be 2-of-3 wallets for every transaction. I'm with you, I support the cause, but not with BTC or smart contracts.

What should we do in this case? Ditch Monero for Bitcoin? Wouldn't that be going back?
/u/lemonDragon
1 points
1 week ago
I believe at one point there was time lock for monero, but the devs removed it because no one used it and there were security concerns.


I could be wrong, please correct me if I am. :)
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
All posts about monero are moderated before approval due to phishing links.

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/u/ringct
1 points
1 week ago
Might be, I don't personally remember.
Multisig has always been a controversial topic in Monero. Never been looked at that much.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
We dont have to ditch anything... make a MS a requirement as an alternative payment, this would be a first step.
/u/ringct
1 points
1 week ago
I agree, one step at a time is necessary for change. Radical change could also be beneficial and make all the current markets run to elevate to the new standards though.
/u/PsycheShop
3 points
1 week ago
There have been many multi-sig markets everyone lost money on.
/u/ViolentRuski
2 points
1 week ago
The community will have to force this will on the markets, they'll never do it willingly. Otherwise, it would have been done years ago.
/u/ProjectCannabis
2 points
1 week ago
These new age kids can barely figure out pgp, and proper opsec.

Imagine getting them to learn multisig, it's great ofcourse but at the end of the day the last marked I used with multisig was cannahome and even it took me a minute to get over the learning curve but once you learn it you got it down. Alot of potential customers will give up when having to learn multisig
/u/JoeExotic P TURTLE KILLER!
1 points
1 week ago
they were the last market around to have a good MS system.
/u/TmbUK
2 points
1 week ago
need to get rid of this escrow bullshit and need better customers, we are in time where markets are dropping like flies and i still have customers not finalizing after receiving order next day just goes to show only care about themselves. DNM is so bullshit now.
/u/spaincartel
1 points
1 week ago
well said think its time they fixed there super list up too n ex us is the best market out there at the minute why isnt it on there?

superlist meant to protect us? well lads i think u need to reconsider haha what the superlist stands for
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Visit the ⚠️Superlist⚠️ and compare markets for yourself.

Asking this question will get only subjective answers and shills pushing certain markets.

You will get as many answers as there are markets.

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/u/spaincartel
1 points
1 week ago
well said think its time they fixed there super list up too n ,,,ex,... us is the best market out there at the minute why isnt it on there?

superlist meant to protect us? well lads i think u need to reconsider haha what the superlist stands for
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Visit the ⚠️Superlist⚠️ and compare markets for yourself.

Asking this question will get only subjective answers and shills pushing certain markets.

You will get as many answers as there are markets.

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/u/JoeExotic P TURTLE KILLER!
1 points
1 week ago
you lost me @ BTC
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
haha dude... I'm absolutely pro enforcing XMR as well but XMR is banned in many countries and unfortunately many customers are not that "tech savvy". I do encourage and help all my customers to use XMR.
If they can't swap BTC for XMR you can be sure they won't use multisig, not even BTC multisig which is fairly easy.
/u/pookie_maharaj
1 points
1 week ago
Swapping currencies ain't rocket science, my man.
/u/ProjectCannabis
1 points
1 week ago
For some people it is lmfao
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Are you a vendor? Do you deal with dumb customers? I have 3-5 customers every week explaining the they can easily swap xmr and how it works.... seems like you don't know but let me tell u sth., PEOPLE ARE STUPID
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Go to /d/monero for information on obtaining xmr.

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/u/YourLocalMurderer 🍼
1 points
1 week ago
what countries is xmr banned in? or do you just mean delisted from most exchanges?
/u/pingking1337
1 points
1 week ago
> XMR is banned in many countries

you are a complete retard and any actual fair points you may have had (by accident) have all been invalided by this one statement
/u/Po1son
1 points
1 week ago
All market should do just like white house market did. PRIVACY SHOULD BE MANDATORY NOT OPTIONAL!!
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
2 points
1 week ago
has nothing to do with the topic but thanks.
/u/Ratchet_Man 🍼
1 points
1 week ago
Haha!
/u/bl0nd3d
1 points
1 week ago
White house/ Mr White are definitely missed
/u/CANNAMAIL
1 points
1 week ago
This has been tried and proven to not work. I forget the market, was it WallStreet?
/u/JacktheRipper13
1 points
1 week ago
Its not neccesarily true Versus market was Multisig and they exit scammed. The Multisig addresses and keys were generated server side.
/u/watchmedie
1 points
1 week ago
Admins are not the problem, buyers are. It is complexity versus convenience, and the latter always wins.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Buyer pay the a wallet... they don't know if its multisig or not and as long as the market doesn't exit they will not have to deal with anything. So it's convenient for them as well
/u/HugBunter A
1 points
1 week ago
Multisig BTC maybe, but Bitcoin brings other problems. Monero multisig is just not usable, you can't even push users to use PGP, nevermind trying to get them to use Multisig.
/u/Shakybeats M Modinator
1 points
1 week ago
Basically what I said. I've been trying to push MS for years. The problem is even if all the big name markets went MS some shit market would come in spam reddit and blow up because people are too lazy to learn the most basic tools
/u/BrutalDeathMetal 🍼
1 points
1 week ago
PGP for sensitive info on the DNM should be like a peanut butter and jam sandwich... They just go together.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
As a vendor, if the shit market doesn't offer MS I tell customers who want to buy bulk to switch market or that they have to FE. You can spam reddit as much as you want, different customers... I'm talking about enforcing it on dread and its superlist. If it's not realisitic to fully enforce it then have it as a requirement to offer MS as an alternative payment method. thats a first step.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Well lets start to enforce MS BTC at least? Versus showed that it's possible. WHM showed that you can indeed push users to use PGP.

The usability of MS XMR is sth. else, that's right but I think it still should be enforced, at least it should be an alternative method next to regular XMR. Why? Market admins have to work it out, learn and find solutions how to implement. If we don't enforce, we won't have any progress. The customer won't even know hes using multisig... only in case the market goes offline and he has to co-sign it might get difficult but the market has no incentive to exit-scam and if a market gets seized LE does will not get funded with out money. I rather have the funds locked somewhere then getting scammed or funding LE.

So if completely enforcing is not reasonable, make it a requirement to at least offer both MS as an alternative payment method.
As many have pointed out it does look good except for the complexity moreso when it comes to XMR multisig. DarkMatter implemented (and are maintaining) a working XMR multisig system but I'm not sure how many are actually using it. Some users can barely be pushed into using PGP, enforcing MS would be a nightmare because people will fuck things up.

Another option which primarily suits vendors would be direct deal mode, the system Monopoly had but this has it's own problems like vendors having to deal with refunds and cancellation themselves (or keeping a deposit on the market), excluding new vendors and general nuisances with underpayments / overpayments.

Either way if the market decides to go rogue they can tamper with the MS system or replace deposit addresses with their own so there is no perfect solution.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
It is complex to implement but that's sth. that the markets have to figure out. The customer will pay to a regular xmr wallet and will not have anything complex to do. Only if the market exit scam he gets there but it prevents markets to exit scam are the is no incentive and LE wont get further funded.

At least markets should offer MS as an alternative payment method.
It's not that easy, in order to be multisig all parties need to be part of it, thus the multi. BTC multisig is easier but XMR not so much. If the burden would be only on the market you would be fucked regardless.

TBH and speaking only for ourselves we will never implement multisig because it's not worth it maintaining a complex system to be used by less than 1%, it doesn't make sense and you as a vendor will certainly miss orders. The direct deal mode is practical indeed and most issue can be worked around.

As for MS check out DarkMatter, afaik they are the only market with a working system.
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Go to /d/monero for information on obtaining xmr.

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/u/ProjectCannabis
0 points
1 week ago*
Your first paragraph is chef's kiss. However I believe certain vendors should be given FE early on due to factors such as sales or how long they've had their skin in the game. This doesn't prevent a vendor from exiting but it does allow the most experienced vendors to offer cheaper prices and not worry about taking losses and in the case a market goes down said vendor is still going to fulfill the order since the money isn't tied into escrow.

As in my case the recon numbers weren't accurate but I easily have 10k sales under my belt at least and am personally tired of taking loss after loss to market. I was level 10 on empire, and one of the top vendors on WHM where basically you had to gross 250k monthly just to make it there with peak months being 400-500k in sales.
While your name sounds familiar your PGP probably returned no hits where we checked thus the FE delay. Anyway with our vendor friendly AF timer FE should not really be a concern. FE is an illusion anyway or a thing of status, coin still goes to a market controlled wallet and if the market wants to screw you they will regardless.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Well and that is exactly why I want this to get enforced at least as an requirement to offer MS additionally to the regular payment. Customers and vendor can still decide if they want to use it. I as an vendor would incentive MS by offering better prices to customers using it. This would help to further develop MS XMR.

Of course a market could temper but that's another topic and there are solutions for that.
You would probably like direct deal more. Can't promise anything but we'll see.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Obviously I like direct deal more but that takes away some major protection from the customer but yeah, lets enforce direct deal ^^
/u/ProjectCannabis
1 points
1 week ago*
Trust me I've been around the block. I took a hiatus but I've been vending under this username since Empire, If you guys could get a hit on an alternative to recon let me know if I'm eligible for FE. Trust me when I say I've easily have a longer track record than 95% of vendors. My dread account alone is 6 years old and alot of the top vendors especially in the cannabis side of things know me. I can even go to far as to say that /u/BestBenzos would vouch for me as solid and I know they have FE on your market. I was also on Cannahome which was by far the strictest Cannabis market for anyone to get on. WHM, Torrez, Alphabay2.0, Dark0de, Icarus lol they exited so quick, BigBlue, Versus, Bohemia, World Market and a few more I cant remember. Even on Archetype I had nearly 1k sales in a few months. Just saying I've been around and my pgp's the same. I know this because on the 1 week I was on Abacus they had recovered some of my stats pulled which was about 4500 sales.
The reason behind my hiatus from DNM vending for 2 years was because I can proudly say I played a big role in migrating all Cannahome vendors and customers to telegram. I created a channel called Treehouse2.0 which became a directory for all top cannabis vendors. Which led to me having a menu of 6500 organic subs, before it got deleted around the time Tele started to get strict. So essentially I may just be the founding father of DNM vendors adopting telegram as a whole.
/u/BlackCell P
1 points
1 week ago*
You're right, the XMR multisig setup definitely looks solid on paper, but the actual usability side is still pretty rough, especially for less technical users. A lot of people still struggle with basics, so expecting them to manage multisig reliably is wishful thinking. The risk of user error is just too high for it to be enforced across the board. At the end of the day, none of these systems are bulletproof. If a market decides to act maliciously, they can easily mess with each and every component of the system, in the end we’re still relying on trust at some level. And as /u/Hugbunter pointed out correctly; The barrier to entry is just too high. The learning curve for XMR multisig is steep, especially for non-technical users, and the margin for error is massive. One small mistake and funds can be lost for good. Forcing something like that on the average user is asking for trouble.
/u/Ketamanz 🍼
1 points
1 week ago
Why not create a crypto platform with an escrow system that would be attached to the market but which would be external to the market so the market could not do an exit scam because they would not be linked?
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
So whos in charge of the crypto platform with an escrow system? Whoever that will be, he will exit scam^^
/u/Ketamanz 🍼
1 points
1 week ago
I know, it's blind trust
/u/biosphere P
1 points
1 week ago
Silk Road's model is outdated and can no longer provide security for buyers and sellers.
We need a radical new solution.
IPFS network could be an alternative.
There is a DeCommerce project (ivyca.com/decommerce/)
But obviously it can't be used for illegal items trade in its current form.
The project should be rewritten to include features such as PGP encryption and replacing email to XMPP for order notifications.
/u/tortilla_eyez
1 points
1 week ago
i always had a bad feeling about Abacus, or any market that forces you to deposit crypto before putting in an order. thats why i like drughub even tho the UI is a little clunky, you pay as you buy.
/u/dontlaugh Darknet Shaman
1 points
1 week ago
still working on XMR only, auto withdrawals and enforced PGP(NO MARKET SIDE ENCRYPTION)...even those get pushback when we've tried to implement them.

multisig isn't in a workable state for xmr yet, so i dont see it solving these problems as of now
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
You could start with offering MS XMR + BTC as an alternative payment method additionally to regular. Vendors can incentive customers to use MS with cheaper pricing. Customers don't really need to know how MS works, they do the payment as if it is to any other wallet. It prevents markets from exit scamming as they wont have access to the funds...
/u/dontlaugh Darknet Shaman
1 points
1 week ago
it's a tricky one - we dont want BTC enabled, but that is only the real viable MS at the moment.

XMR MS is a mess and not usable as it stands.
/u/delhifpo P
1 points
1 week ago
Objectively speaking, MULTISIG has been requested by those who dont understand it.

If a market somehow found a way to make it work, I would assume it becomes significantly more difficult to maintain as they grow. Another thing to consider.

I still Voted for Yes, because you worded NO like that! lol
Versus......

Where art thou,

ahh the good old days where people actually had integrity. ASAP were excellent and more importantly ammicable
/u/diaperspray P
1 points
1 week ago
I've seen quite a few exit scams and this sure smells of one. Yes Multi-Sig is the way to go from here, it's an implementation that should have been applied to at least the Bitcoin on market.
/u/0verdosed
1 points
1 week ago
Versus was honestly one of my favorite markets that multisig was bullet proof

Even after the market closed its doors; every vendor was able to withdraw their coins because of that beautiful multisig <3

Maybe again in the future we shall see something like that once again.
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Visit the ⚠️Superlist⚠️ and compare markets for yourself.

Asking this question will get only subjective answers and shills pushing certain markets.

You will get as many answers as there are markets.

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/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Exactly, Versus! It worked perfectly and no one got ripped.
/u/kesselrun
1 points
1 week ago
I say no because I don't know what multi sig is or how it works.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
0 points
1 week ago
Ok, so you say you prefer to get your money stolen instead of informing yourself on how to not get robbed.... smart. Quick Tip, ask chatgpt what mutlisig is ;)
/u/ComberGB 🍼
1 points
1 week ago
Getting on the sites and making purchases needs to be simple. Never ending capthas and finding missing letters fr URL is not going to attract especially as soon as you reload to another screen you get chucked out.
There were responsible / honest site creates out there. Ross / Silk Road. Dream, and Archetyp. The trouble is once a site becomes successful they get a lot of power and as they say power corrupts, and the absolute power of successful Market admins corrupts absolutely.
Along with one of the deadly sins: greed
multi-sig does not protect you from exit scams, markets with multi-sig have also exit scammed
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
Multisig protects the funds that are paid with multisig. If a market exit scams then he does not have the funds from multisig. Also no multisig = no protection. Don't you think it's better to have this layer of security rather than not having it at all? At the very least it makes it more difficult for the markets to exit scam.
/u/c0ntagi0n
1 points
1 week ago
totally agree, the only issue i see is getting new customers onto the market because its another hurtle they'll need to learn in a one mistake im fucked learn curve to first time action, but other than that they should know how to use it intead of trusting a sites multi sig automation script, just like pgp should at the very least have to manual encrypt verses trusting site assisted because if you want to trust the market with there script to make it easier that a huge opsec hole thats because of pure lazyness and thats the most dangerous type of ignorance, that leaves everyone at risk we are a community we should care about everyones opsec, and on that note i want the wallet creation none custodial.
/u/Shakybeats M Modinator
1 points
1 week ago
I've been trying to push MS for years. Part of the reason we originally went back and updated the DNM bible was because we wanted newbies to get more familiar with XMR and MS.

One of the biggest issues is people are fucking lazy. It's hard enough to get people to use PGP. Newbies get on here don't want to take the time to learn the most basic things. They just think quick buy drugs on the internet!! I used market encryption from my cell phone I'm safe.

Even if all the big markets go MS only one shit market can come along accept bitcoin, market encryption and make the most simple UI. Spam reddit since we wouldn't allow them here, and they will quickly grow.

I'm always open to new ideas, but it comes down to vendors. Yes they will make the most money on these shit simple markets, but the market will exit scam. When vendors finally all stop using these markets we might have a chance to see MS pushed more.
/u/LekkerCocaine 📢
1 points
1 week ago
I get your point, I know people are lazy and dumb. Thats why we have to make it easy for them + dread has to enforce them. Dread is still the number one go to page for many when it comes to finding a market. So if dread enforces it, we will get there at some point. Not enforcing it and allowing Markets without Multisig to promote will 100% not help and we will continue having this shit. Guaranteed!

WHM enforced XMR and PGP for example and they still became the leading market. So it shows that people are able and willing to learn if they have to. If we add some nice, short instructions here and to the markets which enforce it people will read and learn.
/u/IThinkImMe
1 points
1 week ago
What we really need are markets that don't have their own wallets. Or a way to withdrawl that wallet if the site isn't working
/u/panzer_student_network_DJ
1 points
5 days ago
I reached out to DarkMatter staff regarding the XMS program written by BlackMask and how the graphical web version doesn't work on Tails, and they said they are currently redoing the whole XMR multisig section on the academy section. The cli version is also fairly rough to use and I'm no stranger to cli tools.

If XMR multisig were easier to implement and use then it would be a great thing, but getting there is the challenge obviously.

This has been Panzer, your student network DJ.
/u/OpenMonero
-1 points
1 week ago*
[removed by moderators]
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
Posting links of any sort is discouraged. There are ways to shortlist links or just include the information the link provides.
If you feel it's completely necessary to post a link, it requires Mod approval to be posted.

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We don't post links or use javascript so I removed your comment.
/u/Silent_Cal 🍼 P
1 points
1 week ago
Comment is still there.
Hmm. I'm not seeing it. Are you sure you are not high or something?
/u/Silent_Cal 🍼 P
1 points
1 week ago
I swear it was there, and it had a link and a JS plus using Safer rather than Safest security in Tor browser. It's gone now though, and that's more important. :)
I hear ya. Take another toke, maybe drink some water.
/u/Silent_Cal 🍼 P
1 points
1 week ago
Just did that. Definitely makes the day better, esp after my small loss on Abacus :(
/u/OpenMonero
1 points
1 week ago
Hey, I was talking about the Moenro multi-sig repo on GitHub.

There's also SecureSwap that supports multi-sig, but I'm not sure how user-friendly it is. It needs JavaScript and WebAssembly, which wouldn’t be a big deal if it was open-source and you could self-host it. Also, trying to use it with the Tor browser at the ‘Safer’ setting doesn’t seem to work, so it looks like getting both privacy and multi-sig at the same time might not be possible right now.
/u/coffee21989
1 points
1 week ago
Hey,
I'm sure many people has seen your consensus on thinking XMR ms requires js (or in this case typescript, which I'm sure you know compiles into js) but simply don't want to respond
anyways, you don't need javascript for xmr multisig (XMR CLI & RPC wallets actually DO support multisig, and there are Go, Rs & C++ libraries), it's just very underdeveloped by monero devs afaik. It is a extremely big deal to have js on any privacy-focused service; if you have javascript enabled assume your IP gets instantly logged on webpage loading & everything you type is logged. fingerprint leaks, LE / hackers could inject MITM (as JS is the absolute EASIEST attack vector for MITM), and many more issues I'm sure I have not even gone around the corner to mention. It is a huge deal to even have a single js file, there is a reason why everyone says to disable JS, even if the actual file serves little to no purpose in the first place. This is the reason why even the "Safer" default option on tor disables js automatically. XMR MS via this method? Horrible idea, I'm sorry. The fact that it's open source doesn't matter beyond the point of knowing there's a single bit of js (or ts), the problem is execution not transparency as this has no correlation with user safety. Client-side work is asking for trouble. I understand little backend work contrary to many other members here, but afaik you absolutely can get both privacy & XMR MS at work; however it's unpractical & underdeveloped as many users keep mentioning. Just listen to them, they've made their points, I think they're valid enough. I do think MS is absolutely a good idea, but XMR MS specifically seems challenging at work. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong on any major points, thank you.
/u/AutoModerator M
1 points
1 week ago
All posts about monero are moderated before approval due to phishing links.

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Never trust links in comments or private messages

Go to /d/monero for information on obtaining xmr.

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